I kind of enjoyed this because it gave me a little more diversity in my knowledge. But when it came time to work on my own stuff (which was so preliminary it wasn't ready for prime-time yet) he always pulled me off to work on more 'now' projects. I still graduated with plenty of time, and plenty of pubs. But I hated that we had to bend to his will and he a) wasn't grateful, and b) acted like he was doing us a favor. I'm hoping I will see things more from his perspective eventually, but talking to other grad students, their advisors were more grateful of their hard work (like having a lab dinner or celebration when they graduated...which we never got), cared whether they were really grasping the material, and generally nicer people. A lab mate was on the hospital for a month and our advisor didn't visit her once. When she came back he asked her if she had done any work while in bed.
So all of these experiences has fostered a lot of resentment from a few of us; no more than myself. So as I'm preparing for setting up my lab, I'm soliciting advice and he never has time to talk with me for 10 minutes. Whereas if he needs something from me (like a medical device) for his research he always has time to call, ask for stuff, then hang up.
I'm a pretty selfless person, and I'm very quick to respond to emails, missed calls, etc. I hate leaving people waiting without telling them why they're waiting. In my opinion it's a respect thing, and everyone should be treated with respect. Part of this is because I'm impatient and get things done very quickly, and expect others to do the same. Not to mention, when you are responsive with someone then think you're treating then with respect and they will be more responsive back...most of the time. I don't work with people who are slow, flaky, or unresponsive. But some people don't have the time management skills I've picked up working for a very fast-paced boss who also happens to be quite selfless.
Talking with one of my former lab mates we were trying to wonder if we'd ever forgive our old advisor. I know my friend will never forgive him. My friend was academically focused prior to grad school and our advisor drove her into industry. She never wanted the possibility of running into him again. I was unsure whether I would ever like him. I hope I do, because he's legitimately the only person I hate. And I hate that I hate someone.
'Hate' is pretty strong. This post makes the guy look a bit cold and self-obsessed, but it doesn't convey exactly what provoked such strong and lasting feelings from you. He didn't take you to dinner or visit your labmate in the hospital? These seem like fairly small complaints, in the greater scheme.
ReplyDeleteYou're right: I prefer dislike, but he's a little beyond that. There were other things like not caring about our papers, making us delay our graduations to work on his pet projects even though we're well beyond done with our dissertations (this, costing us lots of lost income), holding referrals over our heads after we graduated in exchange for free work, and lots of other examples. I only included the stuff that was brought up during a recent meetup with my old lab mates. In the grand scheme of things, there are worse advisors (at least from my discussions with other grad students). But when we talk with other PhD holder only 1 in maybe 20 had worse experiences. My recent interactions just brought up more bad feelings. He only wants to talk when I can bring something to him that will help his research. He'll never help us out otherwise. What ever happened to helping for the sake of helping or am I the only one that does that?
DeleteThere were other things like not caring about our papers, making us delay our graduations to work on his pet projects even though we're well beyond done with our dissertations (this, costing us lots of lost income), holding referrals over our heads after we graduated in exchange for free work, and lots of other examples.
ReplyDeleteA lot of BSDs do that. A lot. I am going to say it's almost a requirement for success, and I sometimes think I am stupid for being considerate.
Think about it selfishly -- you spend time and money to train someone (not you, but a generic student) and when they finally reach competence, they can't wait to leave. Good for them, but a crappy deal for the person training them. As I am getting older, I am beginning to realize I have to be a little more selfish and yes, perhaps have students delay graduation by several months, so they get that final paper or two out.
I am not sure if the students will hate me more, but it certainly didn't do much for me paying someone for 4-5 years of which they barely produce 3 paper and then can't wait to leave. No. They need to finish what we agreed on, all the papers we agreed on, and train replacement properly.
I think you will start feeling differently in a few years after you have been a PI and seen how much effort and money it is possible to put into a student and get squat back. That's why people try to get as much out of the well-producing students, because especially in experimental sciences your own career is tied to what your students produce. I would not begrudge your PI too much. He was doing what he had to do to. I am not saying he's an angel, but he wasn't going to risk not getting tenure or whatever, because nobody actually gives out awards for the most empathetic advisor.
OTOH, the fact that he's not propelling you even now means he's probably still insecure and way too involved in thinking about his own career to help you advance yours. My advisor is old and well recognized, and he's still too self-centered to help me unless I ask. Also I am not his pet white boy student.
Sorry for rambling. But you will understand your PI better in a few years.
Haha, yeah I'm really looking forward to seeing things from the other perspective. I have no problem with keeping students to get their papers out. I only have an issue when 1) they're kept around when all their papers are out and published, and 2) they don't hold all students to the same standards. Either way, in hoping my point of view will change.
ReplyDeletethey don't hold all students to the same standards
ReplyDeleteI know... But you will quickly realize people vary WIDELY in their abilities. That is perhaps the most dramatic realization that comes with mentoring. The thing is, among the people who eventually get a PhD there is a huge spectrum, and faculty are generally on the one end and they think everyone else is like them. Soooo not. For instance, there are students who are very smart but lazy. There are hard workers who have no imagination to save their life. These are all people who looked great on paper and did well in school, and then you take them to do a PhD and... they suck. I would say most students suck at least somewhat. Finding one who is imaginative, self-starting, attentive to detail, and who picks up things really quickly is actually very rare -- one such student is worth 5 average and probably 10 so-so ones. What one of you can do the rest simply cannot, it's not that the PI wants to enslave you and give others a free pass. It's that you can take on way more and do it well.
Here's an example: I have a student who will soon graduate with what I call a minimal project. He did the work competently and has great attention to detail, but has no imagination and generally has no physical intuition. And I don't think he even cares to develop it. I wanted him to do something and after spinning his wheels for a year I realized it's not happening so I put him on something much more straightforward. Two years ago, along came a guy who did the original project quickly and without breaking a sweat.
I can't say for your boss, but I have made my peace with the fact that most people cannot be career scientists, but they can be PhD-trained useful corporate employees, probably not in R&D at all. The ones born to be scientists are relatively rare. As for the rest, I have a minimal set of criteria they have to fulfill -- how hardworking and smart they minimally have to be, and how much they have to produce. For the capable ones, I actually push them as far as they will go, because it's good for them, good for me, good for science, and because they can take it and because they will grow from it.
In what is perhaps a sick and twisted way, the fact that your advisor wanted and expected so much more from you than an average student is a testament to him realizing your potential.
I promise I will shut up now. :-)
I'm really hoping I end up seeing it from your perspective. Talking with some other students from the lab I realize more and more how selfish and unfair he is. I've been used to unfair throughout my whole life and can work past it but the academic environment is so political and unpoliced so I can't do anything about it. In really hoping I see all of this differently in a year...
ReplyDeleteI know you wrote this a while ago, but this post really resonated with me. Let's just say that, I, too, don't like to hate anyone, and that my PhD advisor was also ... challenged in some ways. I have a couple of thoughts:
ReplyDelete1) Academia breeds selfishness. All PIs that I know have absolutely no trouble putting their needs first -- it comes so natural to them! That's because they spent 6 yrs on the TT thinking, "If I don't get tenure, my whole lab goes under, and that wouldn't be good for the students, either." And after years of putting themselves 1st, well ... they just get used to it. Now I'm not saying that a PI shouldn't put himself 1st. But really, without seemingly any conflict and always? That strikes me as somewhat abnormal, and I hope you don't transform yourself into that.
2) You need to stop helping your ex-advisor. He sounds damn petty -- how much of an inconsiderate jerk do you have to be to ask your student if they managed to get any work done in the hospital? Did you at least get a heartfelt "congratulations!" from him when you graduated? (I'm betting no....) This guy is not just clueless, as he seems to know how to work you when he wants something. He may not be the world's worst advisor, but he doesn't deserve your help/cooperation. Why do you give it to him? Respect yourself enough to say the hell with that!
I predict that in the coming years you will, o.c., have a much better idea of what he went through on the TT. You'll likely make some mistakes, do/say things you'll regret. But will you understand why he, to this day, is so selfish? I hope not! It's perfectly OK to decide that s.o. is not worthy of having you in their life and simply cut them off. I hope you learn how to do that instead.
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